A Conversation with Jason Kirk, Author of Hell is a World Without You
“There were plenty of times when I worried that I was just screaming in the reader’s face...” —Jason Kirk, author of Hell is a World Without You
I’m sure it’s possible to read Jason Kirk’s excellent debut novel, Hell is a World Without You and not think about your entire spiritual identity, but that was not my experience.
The quick sales pitch for Hell is a World Without You goes as follows:
“Rarely has an Evangelical upbringing been depicted with the relentless honesty, wide-ranging empathy, and Superbad-meets-Siddhartha playfulness of HELL IS A WORLD WITHOUT YOU.
“During the time of Pizza Hut buffets, 9/11, and all-night Mario Kart parties, a grieving teenager faces a mortal crossroads: fire-and-brimstone certainty vs. forbidden love. And whether or not you’ve ever begged God to delay the Rapture (so you could have time to lose your virginity), that kid’s story is about you.”
Having left Christianity in 2017, I started reading this book expecting to be filled with all types of righteous indignation/validation and, yes, I got some of that stuff. But what I also got, and what ultimately meant more in the end, was remembering all the happy times too, the lasting friendships that helped shape me into who I am. Through Isaac’s story, I was better able to understand my own, and for that, I’m truly grateful to author, Jason Kirk.
Recently, I was able to speak with Jason about writing memorable characters, the fine art of subtlety, the early 00s music scene, and more.
Our conversation follows.
When did you officially begin writing Hell is a World Without You? Did you experience any periods of writer’s block or moments of self-doubt during the writing process? If so, how did you push through?
Overall, the novel took four years to go from a blank Google Doc to a Kirkus Reviews recommendation (yes, I’ll always work that in), including lots of days of 12 hours or more in 2021 and 2022.
Thanks to having the most Write What You Know subject possible, I had the opposite of writer’s block, as it ballooned multiple times to the size of a lore-about-dragon-feuds novel. Fortunately, writing a few million total words ensured I handed my editors only the best 90,000 I could.
I think me being an editor by trade also helped. I often told myself that the solution to the current story puzzle (usually related to pacing, my biggest challenge in a story about a very busy four-year period) was just around the corner, and then myself was obligated to trust me.
What were some lessons you learned from writing Hell is a World Without You that have helped you improve as a writer?
The main new thing I learned, rather than had reinforced, was something about how to use subtlety. There were plenty of times when I worried that I was just screaming in the reader’s face about a thing, but then one of my early readers would tell me they’d missed that thing entirely.
Usually, I ended up saying fuck it, let’s actually scream in the reader’s face, unless I was fine with the reader breezing past that point during their first read and hopefully catching it on their second.
You shared in your newsletter about querying literary agents and first pursuing a more traditional publishing route with Hell is a World Without You, what were your takeaways from that experience? Do you have any advice for those who may be looking to create an independent publisher for their own novels?
I got enough feedback to know the book is good, some helpful thoughts on POV/tense/genre, and general confirmation that the reason there aren’t enough stories in pop culture about what Evangelicalism is actually like, is that so many gatekeepers grew up in bubbles that didn’t overlap with mine. Nothing personal. They just did not know anything about how relatable this book has been and can be for so many people.
The only advice I can offer, when it comes to assembling a tiny independent publisher from scratch, is to create something that you would take seriously if it were placed in your hand by a stranger. We've sold over 8,000 copies in about three months and gotten excellent blurbs, and based on everything I've heard, that's far beyond the average book by an established publisher, but I don't believe anything would've happened if I'd written less than my goddamn best.
(Knowing your platform is also critical, obviously. I’m fortunate to be part of a podcast community that I knew would be a launching pad, but there’s an attached responsibility: I dreaded letting these people down by associating them with something half-assed.)
Music plays such a big part in the book, from Tooth & Nail bands to mainstream Warped Tour acts, was there a music scene you grew up in? If so, how much did that shape you? Did you play in local bands? Is PG based on one of your friends from that time?
All of my settings and story events are drawn (in one way or another) from the real world, but none of my characters were particularly based on anyone, with the slight exception of Pastor Jack, who intentionally calls to mind a handful of prominent Christian leaders.
From my perspective, the closest IRL comp for each of my characters is me, actually. With emo girl PG, for example, my younger self shared an inability to avoid saying the quiet part, an internet brain, a desperate need to salvage found-family community, and a DIY musical “career.” Obviously, I’ve never been a young girl adopted into America by missionaries, but the treatment I tried to give every character is: What if I had been?
Like PG’s primary Caleb, I was the youth group’s designated rapper and the lead shouter in various bands. PG’s most ridiculous band name and song title were both originally mine IRL, and her two performances that end in misfortune were similar to two of ours. (Yep, our metalcore band really opened for the “Christmas Shoes” act due to a local miscommunication.)
Who are your Top 5 favorite Tooth & Nail bands?
Further Seems Forever
mewithoutYou
Silent Planet
Underoath
Zao
How much did music play a part in helping you through the process of coming to terms with your faith? How much did music help while you wrote Hell is a World Without You?
Generally, music offered endless thematic connections and roundabout ways to explain Evangelical pop culture. Most specifically, the music of Julien Baker challenged me to be as honest as the music of Julien Baker.
My favorite part of Hell is a World Without You is how each character felt fully realized, so much so, that when I finished the book, I missed the time spent with them. Do you have any advice for writers looking to capture similar character development in their own work?
I wanted each character to feel like they remained alive even when they weren’t on camera. No NPCs. No characters who feel like they only animate when the protagonist approaches. Nobody I couldn’t imagine carrying a novel of their own.
If they’re excited to see Isaac, then why? What are they getting out of those interactions? If they’re yelling at him, then what do they sincerely believe he needs to be saved from? Does each character have a hobby or an ambition that isn’t directly related to whichever facet of their identity has been marginalized by one bigoted system or another? Do they have tiny linguistic traits that are unique and consistent, even when typing online? If they're kinda a trope, is it for a reason and does it get subverted?
Each of them having their own little journey was also key, but I’ve also had several people say this cast could work within a hard-edged sitcom, maybe something like a younger “Always Sunny.” I think that’s because it doesn’t feel hard to imagine what each character would do in any situation.
The characters in the book have a series of experiences taking place over several years leading some of them to eventually leave the church or Christianity as a whole, how closely does your experience line up with theirs? Was there a single, definitive moment that led to you breaking away from your church or was it a gradual development like presented here?
In a lot of ways, some of my characters got to speedrun parts of my own multi-decade deconstruction. Or “had to” might be more accurate. They were exposed earlier to some ideas that I didn’t discover until much later (liberation theology, process theology, and Christian universalism, for instance), but I also threw circumstances at them (proximity to a booming church’s inner circle, the most logically consistent zealot I could imagine, etc.) that forced them to make certain choices more quickly than I had to.
At the same time, I tried to show (via the epilogue and elsewhere) that deconstruction isn’t a quick process for anybody.
(Proceeds from Hell Is a World Without You’s first three months funded a final donation of $56,100 to the Trevor Project, the leading suicide prevention and crisis intervention nonprofit organization for LGBTQ+ young people.)
I truly appreciated how, even when the characters were angry with Christianity, they still treated those characters who still believed with so much dignity and kindness. Overall, I feel like even when the book is critical of Christianity, there is a whole lot of kindness and forgiveness consistently throughout the narrative. I’m sure this was intentional, but did that always come through in early drafts? Or did you have to work to achieve this?
Most of the writing process felt like I was dumping ever more and more anger onto the page as I kept finding old wounds to rip open. But the funny thing is: When I go back to read my oldest drafts, I see a lot of performative anger, a lot of yelling about how angry I believed myself to be.
The madder I actually got, the more I realized how much Evangelicalism is a system like any other, religious or non, a system pitting people against people. And yeah, profited people then prop that system up and are culpable for that, but they didn’t create it.
Having antagonists with reasons for Being The Way That They Are was the key to everything. We see Jack and Eli challenge their own beliefs, take care of young people, and express motivating anxieties, but then hurt people anyway. If the reader can see what happened to teenage Eli and think, “huh, that might’ve broken my brain just like it broke his,” then most of the job is done.
It can be hard sharing work that is so earnest and personal, do you have people in your life that you’ve been worried about reading Hell is a World Without You?
I’d love it if everyone read it. I already know of one conservative reader who expected it’d be a hateful rant, but found it much more nuanced than they’d assumed.
Writing/releasing a novel is such a huge accomplishment like climbing Mount Everest, so here I am, asking you, exhausted guy that is still just coming back down, what’s next? Is there another book in the works? If so, how close does it relate to the subject matter of Hell is a World Without You?
The entire time I was working on it, whenever it was in the hands of my early readers, I was tinkering with spinoffs. I don’t know whether my next book project will be fiction or non-fiction, but I’m not done with these characters. I’m pretty sure the next viewpoint character will be the one with whom I already share a Jurassic Park thigh tattoo.
Thank you, Jason!
If you haven’t already, be sure to pick up Jason’s incredible novel, Hell is a World Without You now wherever books are sold online.